14:49 < KremlinatWork> or indeed monastic orders
14:49 < tea> hm. I am suddenly tempted by a larp set on Gethen
14:49 < KremlinatWork> they do, yes
14:50 < tea> actually that could be really cool, if you found the right batch of players
14:55 < KremlinatWork> yeah, I reckon it'd work well
14:57 < ccooke> anotherusedpage: indeed
14:57 < tea> Rakdos: setting of Left Hand Of Darkness, by Ursula K LeGuin
14:58 < ccooke> (Cliche, but I also like the idea of shipwrecked survivors - a flotilla of ships scattered by storm, medieval tech, a cluster of 10-20 small islands)
15:00 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, I think I'd write a very superstitious setting. Communities scattered against a large and scary world, orders of monks in every village and town, holding the view that only faith protects the people from the ravages of the wider world
15:00 < KremlinatWork> and a very, very strong culture of pilgrimage
15:00 < KremlinatWork> with "adventures" in fact being the pilgrimages of the monastic orders
15:00 < KremlinatWork> to various shrines and holy places, with attendant dangers
15:01 < KremlinatWork> I'll be at a player event, sorry
15:01 < tea> KremlinatWork: ooh. ooh ooh ooh. that sounds really fun
15:01 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: interesting
15:02 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: a lot of work would need to go into the deity system, there
15:02 < Khimaera> KremlinatWork: I remember reading some novels where pilgimages granted special powers if you went between the right ones
15:02 < KremlinatWork> it'd require more unity of character concept than is usual for such a setting, but still lots of scope for variation
15:02 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: I do agree with that.
15:02 < KremlinatWork> Khimaera: this also strikes me as something you could use, yes. Those who go on pilgrimages to the holy places return marked.
15:03 < KremlinatWork> indeed you could make this your advancement mechanic
15:03 < KremlinatWork> no "xp"
15:03 < KremlinatWork> but the ic-gifted rewards of faith
15:03 < KremlinatWork> bye
15:03 < KremlinatWork> have fun
15:03 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: A pantheon allows some more variety in characters
15:03 < tea> if you have the right batch of players in the right place, that would be win
15:03 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: yes, it does
15:03 < tea> ccooke: you can achieve something of that with saints, which might be another approach?
15:03 < KremlinatWork> different orders could also work
15:03 < tea> as every setting and their dog has a pantheon
15:03 < KremlinatWork> tea: yes, saints are better for the setting I think
15:04 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: different orders under one roof, though
15:04 < KremlinatWork> yes.
15:04 < tea> but saintly cults are win and awesome
15:04 < KremlinatWork> indeed
15:04 < ccooke> yes, that's interesting
15:04 < Khimaera> KremlinatWork: the pilgrimages were saint based
15:04 < ccooke> but have at least *something* that's very different to this world's monotheistic traditions
15:04 < KremlinatWork> :)
15:04 < tea> ccooke: or at least very different to the way they tend to work now
15:05 < Khimaera> Briar King books I think?
15:05 < KremlinatWork> yes, I think there's still room to make it distinct like that
15:05 < KremlinatWork> noted
15:05 < KremlinatWork> will have a look
15:05 < ccooke> tea: maybe, but... something more original would be nice :-)
15:05  * KremlinatWork ties Kobalos to the train - now you can have a fun train ride trying to get loose before your stop
15:05 < tea> ccooke: hm. there's often so much fun you can steal without needing to invent it though
15:05 < Khimaera> no reason you can't have pantheon and saints
15:06 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: upping the sense of threat would help. Really make the saints the only thing protecting you from very real and visible monsters.
15:06 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: yes. 
15:06 < ccooke> so... what are the monsters?
15:06 < ccooke> and why are they?
15:06 < KremlinatWork> thing is, every fantasy and its dog has a pantheon, monotheistic therefore seems more interesting
15:06 < KremlinatWork> (before you say real world, the real world has many pantheonic religions)
15:06 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, I think you want to leave some of that to be discovered in play, hmm
15:06 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: ... who is that aimed at?
15:06 < KremlinatWork> you want a standard mythos though
15:07 < ccooke> (I said "real world *monotheistic*")
15:07 < tea> possibly as a dualism? God and Goddess and their saints?
15:07 < KremlinatWork> sure
15:07 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, that works
15:07 < ccooke> RakdosHWN: okay. So that would need to actually be a thing that could happen in play
15:07 < KremlinatWork> yeah, you can easily have that be a threat plausible in play
15:07 < tea> and then saints have a bit of the aspect thing going on, being semi-divine, semi-human, representing and empowering an area
15:07 < ccooke> Active satan-analogue followers, hidden in the monastery?
15:08 < ccooke> that gives players another angle, too - although they would have to be limited in number
15:08 < KremlinatWork> I think it's more fun that just as people grow lax in their devotions, the corruption creeps in
15:08 < tea> less the saint of tailors but the saint of protection, the saint of wisdom, and so on
15:08 < Khimaera> you could have faerie type things as enemies
15:08 < KremlinatWork> twists them, mentally and physically
15:08 < tea> Khimaera: ooh, fae. yes, nice
15:08 < Khimaera> the power of the gods keeps reality working
15:09 < KremlinatWork> my pleasure :D
15:09 < ccooke> Pufferfish: s/not//
15:09 < KremlinatWork> Khimaera: hmmm, that could work well
15:09 < Khimaera> the saints were the people who made bits of the world solid?
15:09 < KremlinatWork> also, hmmm. While you *can* run it medieval, the setting is almost independent of era/tech level. You could easily run it post-apocalyptic, f/ex
15:09 < Khimaera> so people could live there
15:09 < ccooke> Khimaera: so, seductive. Very much medieval in theme, then - the powers of the Wild soulless ones 
15:09 < tea> God and Goddess, Saints and Sinners and Faeries, Lord and Lady, perhaps?
15:10 < KremlinatWork> that could work well, yeah
15:10 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: isn't that even more of a cliche these days, though?
15:10  * Estantia notes with irony that's she's just *ended* the age of religion in her campaign
15:10 < tea> Sinners being humans, the ordinary players
15:10 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: yes, it was just an example
15:10 < tea> that was essentially a spectrum, a range
15:10 < tea> doing it medieval sounds good to me
15:10 < ccooke> okay, fine. but the Fey have to be offering something that *players* will be drawn to
15:10 < KremlinatWork> but yeah, I do like that view a lot
15:10 < ccooke> Magic.
15:10 < ccooke> or power
15:10 < ccooke> or something
15:10 < KremlinatWork> yeah, they need power to offer
15:11 < Khimaera> the ability to mould reality to your whims
15:11 < ccooke> and they need a *reason* to offer it to mortals
15:11 < KremlinatWork> traditionally, fae work via dreams - so you could easily have a form of dream magic
15:11 < ccooke> ... oh.
15:11 < ccooke> Okay, so *traditionally* the fey are soulless, right?
15:11 < KremlinatWork> simple - as the saints are no longer venerated, reality slips away into the dream
15:11 < tea> ccooke: om nom your souls they are mine
15:11 < KremlinatWork> the more humans they take away from the saints, the more they win
15:11 < ccooke> what if they want mortals to share souls with them. Share, not devour
15:11 < KremlinatWork> interesting
15:11 < tea> hmm. both approaches are nice
15:11 < KremlinatWork> they can be combined.
15:12 < KremlinatWork> easily.
15:12 < tea> and as your soul is spread more thinly, the power the fae will channel through you increases, until you lose it all and become fairy yourself
15:12 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: well, the fey traditionally come in two big sides...
15:12 < ccooke> tea: yes.
15:12 < ccooke> exactly :-)
15:12 < tea> ccooke: I'd like to drop that, I think, because you already have a dualism between deity and faery
15:12 < KremlinatWork> the main thing is you want most of the pcs to remain saint-worshipping though
15:12 < tea> otherwise you triple it
15:12 < KremlinatWork> so you can keep up the pilgrimage model
15:12 < Khimaera> well you can have the difference between seelie and unseelie
15:13 < tea> this is a nice thing in having the primary motivation being protection of reality against the dream or something
15:13 < KremlinatWork> I think you don't want to go too close to traditional-fantasy faerie
15:13 < KremlinatWork> it needs its own twist
15:13 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: Make fey always NPCs?
15:13 < KremlinatWork> of course.
15:13 < tea> (also, it means your characters have an IC reason to go insane due to sleep dep)
15:13 < ccooke> tea: fun!
15:13 < tea> (wakefulness is an act of devotion, sleeping a concession to the Lady)
15:13 < KremlinatWork> and yeah, I can see some really fun dream magic
15:13 < Khimaera> works better as exalted style raksha
15:14 < KremlinatWork> I don't know exalted.
15:14 < Khimaera> KremlinatWork: the setting is pretty interesting
15:14 < KremlinatWork> still, you want the players trying to hold to the real by their faith
15:14 < KremlinatWork> while the world around them tries to mislead and corrupt them and the people they protect
15:15 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: ... whispered promises of help
15:15 < Khimaera> creation is bounded  by the wyld where the fae live, creation is kept real by people living in it
15:15 < KremlinatWork> hence pilgrimages into areas that are slipping into the dream, to restore the shrine
15:15 < KremlinatWork> s
15:15 < tea> the problem is that you really want 20-30 larpers who can all get behind what's a very specific system and form of characters, all in the same local area
15:15 < KremlinatWork> yes, you want a mechanism for allowing them to draw power from the dream at the cost of slowly losing their grip on the real (and long-term harming their cause)
15:15 < KremlinatWork> yeah
15:15 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: target PCs during quests, and say "you can't make it. you'll fail without my help. But you can have it - all you need to do is <action>, and we'll help"
15:15 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: Thing is I can't help thinking of simulated realities when ou speak of situatiosn like that
15:15 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: totally
15:16 < Khimaera> ccooke: especially when they happen to be bleeding out on the floor?
15:16 < ccooke> Khimaera: yes :-)
15:16 < tea> ccooke: that basically happened on the CUTT linear you were on
15:16 < ccooke> tea: *grin*
15:16 < ccooke> I didn't see that
15:16 < ccooke> wish I had :-)
15:16 < tea> it involved shiny calls like "TIME FREEZE" and "WIDE HALT 60"
15:16 < tea> not the final battle, but the encounter before
15:17 < tea> I think we'd jobbed you up just before that, unfortunately
15:17 < ccooke> indeed
15:17 < KremlinatWork> I can also see it having an influence on the kit. A style of kit designed to bring up faithful imagery, but also designed to accentuate the real, keep back the fanciful
15:17 < ccooke> I was being one half of a security system at the time
15:17 < KremlinatWork> utilitarian clothing, armour
15:17 < tea> plain brown robes
15:17 < KremlinatWork> yes
15:17 < tea> metal
15:17 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: Sharp edges, stark contrasts.
15:17 < KremlinatWork> things that are real, solid
15:17 < KremlinatWork> yes
15:17 < Khimaera> holy symbols
15:18 < KremlinatWork> not so much holy symbols, I think, as relics of the saints
15:18 < tea> chains and the like, scraps of steel threaded on necklaces, etc
15:18 < KremlinatWork> bones, former possessions
15:18 < KremlinatWork> and yes - items to draw upon the solid power of reality
15:18 < KremlinatWork> I can totally see carrying a sharp blade, for example, to grip one's hand around if losing grip - focus on the pain
15:18 < KremlinatWork> and the steel
15:18 < tea> the steel is a big thing
15:18 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: I think... there needs to be a set of "traditional" ways to call on the saints. Wearing a yellow ribbon, for instance, in honour of <name>, etc
15:18 < KremlinatWork> mmm, you could easily make metal very important
15:19 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: yes, that'd also work
15:19 < tea> metal should be rare. you want to limit sword phsyreps and plate and so on, but also very important
15:19 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: that *also* gives the fey means of requesting people give them a sign of acceptance
15:19 < KremlinatWork> yeah
15:19 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: "Here's a yellow ribbon. Show us you accept the bargain"
15:19 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, this could be a really deep and fun setting :)
15:19 < KremlinatWork> yes.
15:19 < KremlinatWork> fae favours
15:20 < ccooke> because it is important that PCs can call on the fey without other PCs knowing
15:20 < KremlinatWork> or just removing the signs of their saintly faith
15:20 < KremlinatWork> yeah
15:20 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: too obvious
15:20 < KremlinatWork> true
15:20 < tea> give them pieces of wood painted silver to replace their metal totems
15:20 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: also, the saintly stuff should *work* sometimes
15:20 < KremlinatWork> you end up with an almost inquisitor-esque feel at this point
15:20 < KremlinatWork> yes.
15:20 < KremlinatWork> oh yes, I intend the saintly stuff to be very real
15:20 < KremlinatWork> and fulfil a system role
15:20 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: that's the thing - it should be impossible to *prove* :-)
15:21 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: and a *personal* failure rather than treason, perhaps?
15:21 < KremlinatWork> mmm, among other things, see using the power granted by the pilgrimages as the advancement mechanism
15:21 < tea> I would make it quite provable, quite real, but limited. /more/ power should always be available by going to faery, but that's more power for your personal goals, while staying with the saints advantages teh entire playerbase
15:22 < KremlinatWork> keep saintly magic as personal - works on you or an ally, makes you stronger in a noticeable but not proveable way
15:22 < KremlinatWork> dream magic can reach out, where reality breaks down
15:23 < tea> have it private. after a pilgrimage, characters are quietly briefed by the refs: "You now take a minute longer to bleed out" "You may touch one ally per day and call cure 1" and so on
15:23 < ccooke> personally, I like the idea of fey stuff *appearing* to act like saintly blessings
15:23 < Khimaera> the books with the powers from saint pilgrimages had things like better memory, being faster/stronger etc from the paths
15:23 < ccooke> just... having consequences later
15:23 < Khimaera> the powers being based on the aspect of the saint
15:23 < Khimaera> and how far you followed the path
15:23 < tea> and yes. the faery magics should give similar powers as far as other PCs are concerned
15:24 < tea> "call cure 1 three times a day" might be granted either by a faery or a saint. but a saint requires great devotion, while if you have it from faery, talk to a ref after the session if you used this
15:24 < ccooke> yes.
15:27 < tea> hm. on reflection, I'm quite surprised the cure sufficient I got on that linear did not come with ... consequences
15:27 < KremlinatWork> mmm, that makes sense
15:27 < KremlinatWork> but also you can gift short-term abilities
15:27 < tea> Pufferfish: cunning
15:27 < ccooke> Yay, playing with minds
15:27 < KremlinatWork> ie "we'll let free the net of dream that has the party trapped if only you work with us"
15:27 < KremlinatWork> giving a shortcut out of a hard encounter for a price
15:28 < KremlinatWork> sometimes, of course, it turns you into a vampire
15:28 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: And the prices... are a piece of your soul?
15:28 < KremlinatWork> yes.
15:28 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: ooh. 
15:28 < KremlinatWork> not given away - shared.
15:28 < KremlinatWork> but even so.
15:28 < KremlinatWork> you lose part of what makes you real to do it
15:28 < Khimaera> and sometimes you get possessed?
15:28 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: Thought: You share yhour soul. You have less soul. This shortens your life... quite a bit. 
15:28 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: but there is a way to get *more* soul... go on a pilgrimage...
15:28 < KremlinatWork> not going to deter PCs, who never think long-term ime
15:29 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, perhaps :)
15:29 < tea> could someone grab a copy of this conversation when it's over and send it to me please? I need to vanish now, but would like it for reference
15:29 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: yay, feedback loop :-)
15:29 < Khimaera> also, hilarious mutations
15:29 < KremlinatWork> I quite like the idea of losing some of your reality, slowly becoming apart from the world
15:29 < ccooke> tea: I am logging.
15:29 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: yeah, same here. but how do you do it IC?
15:29 < tea> ccooke: shiny
15:30 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: have the world interact with that person differently. Brief them to take certain things different ways.
15:30 < Khimaera> things like the pc's going to a fishing village and finding that half the fishermen have gills/scales
15:30 < Khimaera> because they have been sailing too far
15:30 < KremlinatWork> yes, that'd be a consequence of fading reality
15:30 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: Vis shadowrun mechs, you only get a certain amount of (soul) and every cyber enhancment (magic power) you get uses up a little of it
15:30 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: hmm. 
15:30 < tea> ccooke: good batch of players? this system/setting is sounding like it will require a batch of players who are all onboard with how it's working very well
15:30 < KremlinatWork> true
15:30 < ccooke> tea: this is why you need good IC rules: For everyone else
15:30 < KremlinatWork> but I think, eg, allowing them to move more easily in the dream, having some things just not affect them/have a lesser impact
15:31 < KremlinatWork> having saintly effects not touch them so strongly
15:31 < KremlinatWork> having people react to them subtly differently
15:31 < KremlinatWork> and making them more susceptible to future changing effects
15:31 < Tetsubin> ccooke: Also, question. Can a (wizard) deliberately share part of their soul with another PC. for use as healing magic or to prop someone up when they would otherwise be deaded/away with the faries 
15:31 < KremlinatWork> just keep track of a reality score for each PC, and have stuff work differently for them accordingly
15:32 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: oh yes. Damage types! share your soul with the fey and you get a slight resistance to physical damage... but you take more from magic
15:32 < Tetsubin> ccooke: If so. The concept of soul bound peoples, who _must_ hang around with their wizard, because he's the only thing keeping them alive, and wizards drawing on a power pool of followers for extra soul juice
15:32 < KremlinatWork> mmm, that works well
15:32 < KremlinatWork> after a while, I can see an aversion to real things
15:32 < KremlinatWork> in particular metal
15:32 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: well, iron
15:32 < KremlinatWork> yeah
15:32 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: Instead of "real" go with "manufactured" or "unnatural" 
15:33 < KremlinatWork> I think "iron" as a damage type would be quite fun
15:33 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: it would, indeed
15:33 < ccooke> iron being the only thing that can touch dream creatures
15:33 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, yes, actually, I can see stealing some of adrian's apt/inapt stuff here. Becoming more fae leading to a loss of ability to interact with artifice.
15:33 < KremlinatWork> and a reluctance for machinery to work with them
15:34 < KremlinatWork> basically seeing hard, solid, artificial, crafted items as both a weapon against the unreal, and also a sign of devotion
15:34 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: So, (for instance) a blacksmith's forge. Damn close to an anti-fae shrine
15:35 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: post *renaisanace* apocalypse. Medieval tech, cannons and guns exist but are incredibly rare (and holy)
15:35 < KremlinatWork> I think it might detract from the feel.
15:35 < KremlinatWork> Tetsubin: you could easily have a patron saint of smiths
15:35 < KremlinatWork> and travel to a remote forge-shrine
15:36 < KremlinatWork> tbh, you could have a vulcan-esque deity.
15:36 < Khimaera> just have gunpowder not exist in the setting
15:36 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: hmm, maybe.
15:36 < Khimaera> it makes everything easier
15:36 < ccooke> it does.
15:36 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: Definitely
15:36 < Khimaera> also things like libraries being holy
15:36 < ccooke> and no research or learning?
15:37 < Khimaera> ccooke: books can store reality
15:37 < KremlinatWork> yeah, I don't want a crafting or research minigame.
15:37 < ccooke> (there should be personal research)
15:37 < ccooke> Khimaera: IU like that!
15:37 < KremlinatWork> looking stuff up, sure. Adventuring to gain rare knowledge, perhaps
15:37 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: personal learning is good
15:37 < KremlinatWork> and yes, books holding reality fixed
15:37 < KremlinatWork> books of religion or the technical, anyway
15:37 < ccooke> Khimaera: ... but only if they're read.
15:37 < KremlinatWork> fiction books I can see being outlawed
15:37 < Khimaera> ccooke: or sung
15:37 < ccooke> indeed
15:37 < KremlinatWork> as a tool of the unreal
15:38 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: (grin) make it work both ways Books hold reality.
15:38 < KremlinatWork> and yes, you can have patron saints of books, and of song
15:38 < KremlinatWork> ways of holding to the real.
15:38 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: books must be consstantly read from or they start to become unreal
15:38 < KremlinatWork> songs of history? good. Songs of fancy? damaging.
15:38 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: So if you write fiction that fiction becomes reality if read/beleived
15:38 < KremlinatWork> mmm, good call
15:38 < KremlinatWork> Tetsubin: not quite, but it helps reality unravel, and can start to become real
15:38 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: Gives you the possibility of "evil" books
15:38 < ccooke> Tetsubin: see, that's why I like "you have to read them"
15:38 < KremlinatWork> yeah, fiction books are the evil books
15:39 < KremlinatWork> twisting reality about them
15:39 < Khimaera> fae putting made up songs in the songbooks
15:39 < ccooke> if you don't keep reading the books, the fey *change* them
15:39 < Khimaera> how are people to konw that it wasn't something that happened years ago...
15:39 < KremlinatWork> mmm, I can see song as a very powerful weapon to hold to, but also to unmake, reality
15:39 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: I'm starting to see instead of real and unreal a war between two different sects, each of which considers the other's reality a nasty nightmare.
15:39 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, I think that'd make a good setting but a bad environment to roleplay in
15:39 < ccooke> Tetsubin: divided playerbase, then
15:39 < ccooke> not fun
15:39 < KremlinatWork> yeah, that.
15:40 < KremlinatWork> want the players all working to the same aim, with different methods
15:40 < ccooke> although the settign as currently described could have some really interesting effects
15:40 < ccooke> For instance: Two orders in the monastery who have differing opinions on history
15:41 < ccooke> (... if you sing from a book enough, it *alters* reality. That's why they keep reading from their books: To keep reality stable)
15:41 < KremlinatWork> this also really gives a niche to people who like playing scholarly characters
15:41 < ccooke> yes
15:42 < KremlinatWork> their knowledge, their reading, is a weapon in itself
15:42 < KremlinatWork> as much so as a sword
15:42 < ccooke> it also gives them a lovely easy left-hand path...
15:42 < KremlinatWork> I can see people bringing piles of books on adventures(pilgrimages)
15:42 < KremlinatWork> :)
15:42 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: Read from a book that says you won here, and the monsters get negatives.
15:42 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: but the *price*...
15:42 < KremlinatWork> until midsummer or so I have so much on I can't do more than throw ideas at irc, but I am liking the sound of this
15:43 < Tetsubin> ccooke: (nod) S'what I mean, "bob won the battle of thingy" "No Jim won the battle of thingy"
15:43 < ccooke> Tetsubin: there is only one answer: Send a force out into the dream to build the right reality
15:43 < KremlinatWork> yes, you can either twist the history at a cost, or you can use the reality of the reading as a charm against the beasts of the unreal
15:43 < KremlinatWork> armour yourself in history
15:43 < Tetsubin> ccooke: so it's perfectly possible to have player set A trying to "ressurect" a dead hero by means of singing fromt he book that tells of him winning his fight.
15:43 < ccooke> Tetsubin: yes. 
15:43 < Tetsubin> ccooke: (grin) Sounds awesome fun
15:43 < ccooke> but the price increases the more time you have to cover
15:44 < ccooke> so anything more than a few days ago will be *nasty*
15:44 < KremlinatWork> I want there to be multiple paths to everything, but still players working to the same goal.
15:44 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, oaths. I can see power in oaths.
15:44 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: and _keeping your word_
15:44 < KremlinatWork> Setting a vow and keeping to it holds you to the real, but you have to make the vow a sacrifice
15:44 < KremlinatWork> yes
15:44 < ccooke> on the other hand, the *fey* could resurrect someone from a long time ago. No problem!
15:44 < KremlinatWork> and yet the fae also set bargains
15:44 < Tetsubin> lying about things, Holy crap, massive reality hit
15:44 < KremlinatWork> so yes, I can see an order, perhaps a saint, of oaths and vows
15:45 < KremlinatWork> with priests who take restricting vows in exchange for staying more real
15:45 < ccooke> (of course, they *might* just resurrect somoene who *looks* like the target)
15:45 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: Using wooden weapons.
15:45 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: that's a standard one :-)
15:45 < KremlinatWork> true
15:45 < Tetsubin> ccooke: I'd say let the fey reach into deep time, but not be so good about making that ripple out into space, otherwise they just get to snap their fingers and say "nope, we are plot hammers"
15:45 < ccooke> Tetsubin: yes.
15:46 < KremlinatWork> either way, the system would need to be smallish, so you could individually tailor what you gave players via what they did
15:46 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: But if crafted stuff is "holy" then priests should be using the most high tecvh they can get
15:46 < KremlinatWork> sure
15:46 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: I would however say they have to make their own
15:46 < KremlinatWork> equally, you can still set where the limit of that tech is
15:46 < KremlinatWork> I don't want a crafting game. Eww.
15:46 < KremlinatWork> on the other hand, you can tailor pilgrimages to places of manufacture and artifice, to gather new equipment
15:46 < KremlinatWork> quest to retrieve a sword, a suit of armour
15:47 < KremlinatWork> which take on both the status of wargear and of relics
15:47 < ccooke> so, a central monastery
15:47 < Tetsubin> KremlinatWork: So a priest must (obtain) is own kit, can't just buy it off a shelf
15:47 < ccooke> and a large number of outying communities...
15:47 < KremlinatWork> yes.
15:47 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: oh! books make things real. You have to visit every place and read its history, or it *stops being real*
15:47 < KremlinatWork> the monastery is a roleplay venue, the adventures go out to the shrines in the smaller places, to restore reality
15:47 < Tetsubin> starts with nowt but bell book and cadle, and must win his sword, armour etc
15:48 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: yes, that's really interesting
15:48 < Estantia> I like this so *very* much
15:48 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: if a place hasn't been visited in a year, it starts to slip. Two years, things are odd and you get creatures. three or four and things are *nasty*
15:48 < KremlinatWork> yes.
15:48 < KremlinatWork> and so that's what drives your adventuring
15:48 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: and then for setting fun... the game takes place shortly after a big war.
15:48 < KremlinatWork> and yeah, it is sounding like a really fun and unique setting
15:49 < Tetsubin> (thinx) I'm already seeing an adventure in which a sneaky type has written bad words in the book of an outlying community and the "proper" history book has to be carted out there and read before teh (dragon) eats everyone
15:49 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: so there are lots of places that haven't been visited
15:49 < KremlinatWork> mmm, there's lots of potential for stuff like that
15:49 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: that gives you a real spur for pilgrimage, too 
15:49 < Tetsubin> ccooke: and some places where people have been deliberately reading things wrong for their own benefit
15:49 < ccooke> Tetsubin: yes
15:49 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: that, or just have the priests stretched beyond their limit for any other reason - either way, it does have to be a struggle to keep the nearby world real
15:49 < KremlinatWork> but yeah, you have so much potential for adventure hooks
15:50 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: ... a resent plague would be even better
15:50 < KremlinatWork> plague is good, yes.
15:50 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: (and it would fit)
15:50 < ccooke> yeah
15:50 < ccooke> I don't like monsters that aren't explained
15:50 < KremlinatWork> but the monsters here, come from where the real world breaks down, as there are no longer enough monks and priests to visit the shrines
15:50 < KremlinatWork> and keep it intact
15:50 < ccooke> this actually gives you a reason for them to exist *and* an expectation of how nasty they are (so you can play with the PCs minds ;-)
15:50 < KremlinatWork> yes
15:51 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: yes. So the monks are slowly retaking the land
15:51 < Estantia> (there is no way in HELL Howitz isn't going to ask for an alternate of him to appear in this)
15:51 < KremlinatWork> either retaking, or treading water to keep it as intact as possible, depending what feel you want
15:51 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: start out losing ground. Player action can make them reverse that
15:51 < Tetsubin> heck alternate anybody can appear without trouble, especially if the history of an area has been fragmented, with one truth in one place and another truth elswhere
15:52 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: agreed.
15:52 < Estantia> and conversion would be *really* important, more people to the side
15:52 < Tetsubin> two villages, both reading a book that says "bob lives here"
15:52 < ccooke> Tetsubin: there would be places where the history has become so twisted that they are hard to get into
15:52 < KremlinatWork> yeah, you get very strong incentives for religious roleplay
15:52 < Tetsubin> two copies of slightly different bobs
15:52 < Khimaera> it would be nice to have a linear system where reading out of a book can be a combat power
15:52 < Estantia> I *love* the religion game slightly too much
15:52 < KremlinatWork> Khimaera: this is one big appeal, yes.
15:52 < ccooke> Khimaera: I hope so
15:53 < ccooke> I'd like to play it :-)
15:53 < Khimaera> don't stutter, or they'll be able to get closer...
15:53 < Estantia> and reality fuckery and stories are another HUGE love of mine
15:53 < Tetsubin> Anyone gettign shades of "inkheart" here ?
15:53 < KremlinatWork> don't know it
15:53 < ccooke> Tetsubin: not read it. Any good?
15:53 < Estantia> Tetsubin: except infinitely better
15:53 < Tetsubin> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0494238/
15:53 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: so... the religion. 
15:54 < Estantia> because that's just another universe into this one, not reality itself falling apart
15:54 < KremlinatWork> mmm, the religion is going to take some work.
15:54 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: (Call it the Duality; it is close to Deity ;-)
15:54 < Tetsubin> three books, First one passable, (good premise) next two crank the handle for no great effect. Last one goes downhill fast towards the end
15:54 < KremlinatWork> duality is good, yes.
15:54 < Tetsubin> Movie (wince) could have been worse.
15:54 < Tetsubin> Estantia: (grin) what is reality...
15:55 < Tetsubin> Also, drugs. Hallucinogens, and anti Hs
15:55 < ccooke> Tetsubin: No need if you have the fey
15:55 < ccooke> just ask them in - they'll give you visions. almost free.
15:55 < KremlinatWork> oh gods, as an amused aside, we have created a setting where a cup of strong black coffee is a holy weapon
15:56 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: *grin*
15:56 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: except what happens if you drink too much? 
15:56 < KremlinatWork> indeed
15:56 < KremlinatWork> it has its price if you take too much
15:56 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: too much reality is bad for you...
15:56 < Estantia> KremlinatWork: I created one where tea is the god-drink
15:57 < Estantia> what is reality is so awesome
15:57 < Estantia> and to dance among the threads... that is where magic truly begins....
15:57 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: so, this Duality. It would be fun *not* to have that on gender lines. To express them as personalities that are depicted as able to manifest as either gender :-)
15:58 < KremlinatWork> yes
15:58 < KremlinatWork> that's good
15:58 < Estantia> ccooke: if you say dark and light both I and Howitz will love you forever
15:58 < ccooke> *do* they manifest?
15:58 < KremlinatWork> hmmm. Duality of past and present?
15:58 < ccooke> Estantia: *laugh*
15:58 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: past and future.
15:58 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: the present is made by mortals
15:58 < KremlinatWork> past and future is good, yeah
15:58 < Estantia> alternatively something similar to narrative stuff
15:59 < Estantia> one that makes conflict and one that resolves it
15:59 < KremlinatWork> you strive to preserve the past, but also to safeguard the future
15:59 < Estantia> antagonist and proagonist
15:59 < KremlinatWork> and so saints can be historians, or makers of things, or visionaries, or so many things
15:59 < Estantia> you cannot have life without good and bad, the trick is to keep them in balance
15:59 < KremlinatWork> each witht heir own sphere of influence
15:59 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, that's drifting away from the setting feel I think.
16:00 < Estantia> Rakdos: point
16:00 < KremlinatWork> not sure I want conflict in the religion.
16:00 < KremlinatWork> :(
16:00 < ccooke> BB|wfh: ... pillow?
16:00 < KremlinatWork> bed? Hung up suit of chainmail?
16:00 < Estantia> conflict within the religion is bad...
16:00 < Estantia> in which case, maybe action and thought?
16:00 < tea> past and future is good, yes. 
16:01 < KremlinatWork> tbh I really like past/future
16:01 < ccooke> I do like past and future. Both have creative and destructive, too
16:01 < KremlinatWork> indeed.
16:01 < Estantia> but what do you do about the present then?
16:01 < KremlinatWork> that is where you act to preserve them both
16:01 < KremlinatWork> where neither can reach, except through their saints
16:01 < ccooke> the past contains the memories of all that was good... and everything we've lost. The future has the promise of resolution and success... but the certainty of failure
16:02 < KremlinatWork> the present is where past and future meet, and are anchored
16:02 < Estantia> the present is where the two meet, but may also give a sense of godlessness, neither one can touch you properly
16:02 < KremlinatWork> this is where the saints come in
16:02 < KremlinatWork> they are the link
16:02 < Estantia> that's the only thing I'd go 'hm' about
16:02 < KremlinatWork> recall that the link to reality is what gives power against the dream
16:02 < KremlinatWork> faith in the duality gives you something to hold to
16:03 < KremlinatWork> when the walls of reality unravel
16:03 < tea> because you can have faith that reality was, and reality will be, no matter where you are now
16:04 < Estantia> but it means that you always walk alone without either god unless you have a priest/saint nearby
16:04 < KremlinatWork> I can see a form of prophecy, that is a future you wish to hold to, and cause to come to pass as a way of ensuring reality
16:04 < KremlinatWork> also providing hooks
16:04 < Estantia> which is awesome, but sad
16:04 < KremlinatWork> mmm, it's quite a dark setting
16:04 < KremlinatWork> personally I like that
16:04 < Estantia> yeah
16:04 < tea> yum yum yum, despair
16:04 < KremlinatWork> also it's very different, which I view as an upside
16:04 < Estantia> yeah, it would be so hard to be a priest in the only place your god can't reach
16:05 < KremlinatWork> yeah, your job as a priest is to keep the faith so you can preserve your god
16:05 < KremlinatWork> instead of them saving you, you are saving them
16:05 < Estantia> to give them a link so that people *aren't* alone
16:05 < KremlinatWork> yes.
16:05 < Estantia> ....yeah that is awesome
16:05 < Estantia> sad but so awesome
16:06 < tea> so who wants to run this?
16:06 < KremlinatWork> I'd be interested, but only when time got less hectic
16:07 < KremlinatWork> as in particular may and june are flat-out
16:07 < KremlinatWork> hi
16:07 < tea> it would probably need to be winter, for people and sites
16:07 < KremlinatWork> yeah, winter would work better for the feel of it.
16:08 < KremlinatWork> autumn, also good
16:08 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: ... thought.
16:08 < KremlinatWork> ?
16:08 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: You have saints in the past. You have *living* saints who have proven themselves
16:08 < tea> autumn gives you summer and winter as next seasons, whereas winter puts you between the summer gone and the summer coming
16:08 < ccooke> and you have *promised* saints from the future
16:08 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: yeah, I was thinking the players would slowly make the advance towards sainthood themselves
16:08 < KremlinatWork> but yes, I like the promised-saints thing
16:09 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: it makes sense.
16:09 < KremlinatWork> you can even have shrines to them, where you go
16:09 < KremlinatWork> to make them come about
16:09 < KremlinatWork> you can even raise the possibility of pcs becoming them
16:09 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: yep. 
16:09 < tea> mhmm. faith shapes reality
16:09 < KremlinatWork> (not in the game scope, but eventually)
16:09 < tea> the really ideal time to try and run it would be the solstice or something
16:10 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: The great thing is... a *real* saint might have been tainted by the fae, might have been not so good... but the history calls them good and says what they did and *That becomes true*
16:10 < ccooke> the outward memory becomes reality as time goes on :-)
16:10 < tea> Pufferfish: it does have certain logistical issues, yes
16:11 < ccooke> which means that the most powerful saints are those furthest away - in the past or the present
16:11 < tea> but symbolically either solstice or equinox are the coolest times. probably want it to IC be one
16:11 < ccooke> (thus you have ideas of the First Saint and the Last)
16:11 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:11 < KremlinatWork> that's awesome, and really fits the setting
16:11 < tea> and you have heresies there. Past /is/ First Saint. Future /is/ Last saint
16:11 < KremlinatWork> and yet, you also have the spectre of saints that have faded from memory entirely
16:11 < tea> there are no gods, only us
16:11 < ccooke> yep
16:12 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: and you could actually *rediscover* them
16:12 < ccooke> with help from the Duality
16:12 < KremlinatWork> yes, and doing so would make awesome plot
16:12 < KremlinatWork> and as you do so, you make new reality
16:12 < ccooke> if some small order far away has kept the memory alive, then your reality and theirs merge and....
16:12 < KremlinatWork> for added fun, they need never even have existed, you just need enough people believing in the history
16:12 < ccooke> (but only once you survived to get there and bring the books back)
16:13 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: ... you need someone to create the Song of the Saints.
16:13 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: because that would be background noise at every event
16:13 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, my one worry is that the future will be harder to work with than the past
16:13 < KremlinatWork> mmm, yeah
16:13 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: it should be hazy. 
16:13 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: as all prophecy is
16:14 < KremlinatWork> indeed.
16:14 < ccooke> ... a sequence. 
16:14 < ccooke> the next saint will be <some broad class of worship>
16:14 < ccooke> and everyone expects them
16:14 < KremlinatWork> yeah
16:14 < tea> Future is the god of changing ways, of decisions and uncertainty
16:15 < ccooke> Draxar: no, because the future contains a dream of order ;-)
16:15 < tea> and also remember that what the PCs worship and believe will shape what happens. if you have a bunch of players who understand their PCs are pious and will believe these prophecies, they should inevitably come to pass
16:15 < KremlinatWork> dream, bad word in setting
16:15 < tea> ccooke: are you saying future is a dream?
16:15 < tea> heh
16:15 < tea> also vision. ironically, somewhat prophecy
16:15 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: "primise"
16:15 < ccooke> promise, even
16:16 < KremlinatWork> I love the fact we've basically created a really interesting setting from an irc conversation
16:16 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: yes, because promises have power
16:16 < KremlinatWork> in fact, I can easily see oaths and promises being sacred to future
16:16 < tea> this also means that promises will not be uttered lightly, nor oaths
16:16 < ccooke> yes, that makes sense
16:16 < KremlinatWork> indeed.
16:16 < tea> swearing to do something changes the entire world
16:16 < KremlinatWork> because a failed oath is a blow to reality
16:16 < KremlinatWork> yes.
16:16 < ccooke> Every PC should have taken at least *one* oath
16:16 < tea> refusing to do it damages reality, it harms your god, it undermines your very world
16:17 < KremlinatWork> yeah, you could actually help differenciate PCs via oaths taken
16:17 < ccooke> probably two, actually
16:17 < ccooke> One to the religious life as a whole
16:17 < ccooke> another to their order
16:17 < KremlinatWork> yeah
16:17 < tea> ccooke: yes. and its fulfilment should always be presented to them in the form of a choice, where the other option is the easy one, is the faery one, is the way out
16:17 < ccooke> tea: yes.
16:18 < ccooke> Draxar: in this setting, the past *is* malleable
16:18 < tea> (hm. looking through an iron ring to see the truth?)
16:18 < ccooke> that's the thing - you worship past and future, and both are deities of change
16:18 < tea> (that's a cool little tic)
16:19 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: ... big thing about choices everywhere.
16:19 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: The present has power over both past and future, in its own way. The actions of the monks will affect both
16:20 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:20 < KremlinatWork> this is the big appeal of the setting, really.
16:21 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: so, the Duality are the rulers of each domain. The monks follow them to protect both past and future
16:22 < ccooke> (I have logged this whole conversation. If people will give me permission, I'll put it online (with anyone who doesn't give permission stripped from the log))
16:23 < ccooke> Rakdos: dunno how they do it. I'd do it as "you can request units, but if later on you don't send them... *paradox*)
16:24 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: you have my permission :)
16:24 < KremlinatWork> and - I do not think duality need to be rulers
16:24 < KremlinatWork> merely representations
16:25 < KremlinatWork> you don't need to anthropomorphise them that much
16:25 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: They should have persnalities, though
16:25 < KremlinatWork> I think you give the personalities to the saints
16:27 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: makes sense
16:27 < KremlinatWork> in a way, the duality is just an accumulation of a shared story
16:27 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: but I think there should definitely be... some level of indirect communication
16:27 < KremlinatWork> the saints being part of it
16:27 < KremlinatWork> hmmm
16:28 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: both of them communicating via prophecy :-)
16:28 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:28 < KremlinatWork> that's a good call
16:28 < ccooke> after all, if you can change the past, it's as valid a target fro prophecy as the future!
16:28 < KremlinatWork> indeed
16:29 < ccooke> so, monks singing the past may sometimes get a glimpse of it - as well as an idea as to whether the prophesy is currently true or might *become* true soon
16:30 < ccooke> monks singing the future (I guess that's the saints-yet-to-come, the Last Saint and the order's promises that it will keep) might get flashes of the future
16:30 < KremlinatWork> mmm, the prophecy basically just provides a common story to work towards
16:30 < KremlinatWork> since stories have power, and the duality is the greatest story of all
16:30 < KremlinatWork> and yes, I can see that.
16:30 < ccooke> (... I like the different orders each singing their promises to the future)
16:30 < KremlinatWork> mmm, yeah
16:31 < ccooke> in fact, I like the idea of an order as a whole *taking on* a promise
16:31 < ccooke> "we will go save <that place>" etc
16:32 < ccooke> we will protect the world from harm, we will provide succour for the needy...
16:32 < ccooke> each order having a set of promises which define it
16:32 < ccooke> and very occasionally adding one
16:32 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:32 < KremlinatWork> in fact, I can see the start of every pilgrimage being a swearing of vows.
16:32 < ccooke> yes
16:32 < ccooke> that would be lovely
16:33 < KremlinatWork> it really would
16:33 < KremlinatWork> it'd get the players IC so well
16:33 < ccooke> in fact... that's the magic of the sains
16:33 < ccooke> saints
16:33 < ccooke> you make your vow. If you carry it out, you get stuff
16:33 < ccooke> you might get stuff anyway - dependant on the thing
16:33 < KremlinatWork> but also, making the vow creates a promise in the future
16:33 < KremlinatWork> so reality tries to shape around it
16:33 < KremlinatWork> if you vow to protect, you become better at protecting
16:33 < ccooke> yes. Lovely.
16:34 < ccooke> Have each PC make their own vow, based on the problem.
16:34 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:34 < ccooke> give them some stock ones, of course
16:34 < ccooke> but allow improvisation
16:34 < KremlinatWork> indeed
16:34 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:34 < ccooke> and make them *public*
16:34 < KremlinatWork> yep.
16:34 < KremlinatWork> for shared roleplay fun
16:34 < KremlinatWork> ideally, you want a ceremony written
16:35 < ccooke> also, diminishing returns
16:35 < ccooke> two vows gets you slightly less than one vow would
16:35 < KremlinatWork> mmm, yeah
16:35 < ccooke> unless you manage to do something special, of course
16:35 < KremlinatWork> hmmm, if we make reality a part of soul and body, you could write a vow in blood, and use part of your reality to make it real
16:36 < ccooke> (so, people could *try* making two vows, but they'd actually need to do something *powerful* to gain by it
16:36 < ccooke> oh, nice
16:36 < KremlinatWork> tbh, your vows are your skill system - which is variable from adventure to adventure
16:36 < ccooke> yeah. I like that.
16:36 < ccooke> With some level of permanency achieved by carrying out the vow well
16:36 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:37 < ccooke> so if you vow to protect with your body, you get some skills. Do it, and you get permanent skills.
16:37 < KremlinatWork> a vow fulfilled is powerful history
16:37 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:37 < KremlinatWork> that I love as an advancement mechanism
16:37 < ccooke> but that only works if you *do* protect someone with your body
16:37 < KremlinatWork> it allows for shaping a character over time, and also a good ic reason to go for success and to do certain things
16:37 < KremlinatWork> also for flexibility
16:37 < ccooke> that is, you take wounds (or impressively don't) that would have targetted another
16:38 < KremlinatWork> mmm
16:38 < ccooke> it also gives the fey a lovely angle
16:38 < KremlinatWork> it also gives an incentive to use your abilities
16:38 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: that was my thought :-)
16:38 < Estantia> I love this system idea so much...
16:38 < KremlinatWork> I am quite happy with it :)
16:38 < ccooke> the fey can offer you skills...
16:38 < Estantia> alternatively you could have a broken vow essentially taking off one of your base hits
16:38 < KremlinatWork> much approval to the people helping create it
16:38 < KremlinatWork> yeah, a broken vow harms your reality
16:38 < Estantia> unless you manage to keep another one which might give you one
16:39 < KremlinatWork> and yes, the fae can offer an alternative, with no vow attached but other downsides
16:39 < ccooke> oh, the fey... wonerful stuff.
16:39 < ccooke> the fey would come to those who are breaking vows
16:39 < KremlinatWork> yes
16:39 < ccooke> and they would offer to make it so the vow had been kept
16:39 < ccooke> all they have to do are share a little soul - just say yes, and it's done - and they will rewrite your history
16:41 < ccooke> I want to play this :-)
16:46 < KremlinatWork> I might be persuaded to help write it
16:47 < ccooke> I have unpredictable time available... but I could offer some bits of help
16:47 < ccooke> also I like contributing ideas to things. And wringing order and systems out of them.
16:52 < ccooke> Right, making a start on the log
16:52 < ccooke> I'll put it up publicly but *only* with those people who have okayed it
16:53 < ccooke> (once I know who is missing, I'll ask them individually)
16:55 < ccooke> Wow. Only been talking about this since 14:49
16:56 < tea> ccooke: that is slightly over two hours
16:56 < Estantia> i wasn't in the conversation so much, but happy to let you
16:57 < Estantia> I'm also happy to be involved in this
16:57 < KremlinatWork> as I've said, happy to be quoted (indeed would like to be)
16:58  * KremlinatWork does not even drink tea and still has a box of yorkshire tea sat on his shelf
16:58  * tea woefaces
16:58  * Estantia pats on head
16:58  * ccooke is working out who to ask for permission :-)
16:59 < tea> Kobalos: that might have been the point :P
16:59 < KremlinatWork> Kobalos: :D
16:59 < ccooke> KremlinatWork: hey, yours was the seed idea. it would be useless without you :-)
17:00 < KremlinatWork> ccooke: thank you for taking it and running with it :)
17:00 < KremlinatWork> also, I should go to a player event
17:00 < KremlinatWork> :D
17:00 < tea> Entimix: do I look like I'm in Oxford to you?
17:00 < KremlinatWork> right, time for the incredibly painful step of putting my chainmail on
17:00 < ccooke> Right. I need permission from tea, Estantia, Tetsubin, Rakdos and Kimaera first
17:00  * tea challenges Entimix to a duel for that insult
17:00 < tea> granted